Milky oil and alcohol
 

I am having some very serious oil milking problems this season.

598 BBC with Dart Pro2 heads, Enderle 80A-1 fuel pump, Ron's Terminator, Moroso vacuum pump.

I ran the engine on the dyno before putting it in the car, and got the best HP / Torque figures with #38 nozzles and a #45 pill. The dyno even indiacted that the engine wanted more fuel, but this was the biggest nozzles / smallest pill I had at the time.

I warmed the car up to set the timing and valve lash. It was idling for about 10 minutes and the temp was only at 110 F. In that 10 minutes, it burned about 5 gallons of alcohol.

I just made my first run with the new configuration and my oil foamed up so badly that the vacuum pump filled the catch can and forced about a quart of oil out of the catch can breather all over the engine. I know the car is running too rich. The temp at the end of the run was 140 F.

The correct intake fitting for the vacuum pump is mounted on the end of the valve cover, as recommended by Moroso.

I can build more engine temp and reduce the oil milking by increasing the pill size but is there any way to reduce the amount of oil the vacuum pump is picking up?

The fuel pressure at an idle is 60 psi and 170 psi at full throttle. Does this sound high? Should I be running a bypass valve?

Any ideas?

What do you have your barrel valve leakdown set at, I would suggest around 22 lbs. also i would run a highspeed bypass valve set around 70 lbs. The nozzles are big enough (IMO) The nozzles are flowed at 65 lbs.
I would think with a -1 pump you should be running a pill some where around .080 with that size motor.
5 gals of fuel in 10 mins. is definately excessive, also when idling i would suggest you close off the fuel shutoff 1/2 way. I and most of the people i know do this and drive up thru the staging lines with the fuel 1/2 shut off, this helps with the milking of the oil, and puts some heat in the motor before the run.

JMO

Zip.

Re: Milky oil and alcohol
 

I SURE HOPE You have a 1060 Terminator,and NOT a 1055?You NEED the Bigger Injector with Your Combo!
You Realy could use a 39 or 40 Nozzle.I have a 496 and I have 38's in Mine!
I DONT Understand the .045 Main?You should be in the .085 Range,do you have a High Flow Barrel Valve?Gray or Purple?
Zip's dead on with the L/Down.
DID You have the PUMP Flowed?A -1 Enderle,should be in the 6.5 gal range?
LMK?
Later
G 8)

Thanks Zip.
My barrel valve is at at 24% leakdown.
The reason I started with this configuration is that it gave the best HP and torque on the dyno. It was run on the dyno with no high speed bypass.
Ron's recommendations were much leaner and when I tried using them last season, the car keopt stalling on me after the burnout or at the top end when I release the accelerator pedal.
I tried pulling the fuel shut off out half way, but as the engine leaned the idle RPM climbed to over 2200 ( I probably pulled it out too far). I didn't have a lot of time to experiment with the proper setting to lean it out.
The fuel pressure seems excessively high to me. The more pressure, the more fuel through the orifice (pill) and also more to the main jets. The system in at 60 psi idling.

Do you run a egt or a o2 senor ? if so what are them readings.

I assume your not leaving the fuel shutoff, in all the time correct ?

Few things right off, 45 pill is well off in left field, you should jump to a 39 nozzel and a 86 pill. 2nd thing, dyno's always love fuel, we dont race them though, so the data there is usually a bit off. It may make the most there on the dyno but will not in the car.

Did you buy the setup used or new from rons ? I've never had any luck with the setup that Ron's give me unless its from James Monroe. Your best bet is to call him if you want to talk to Rons. www.killerrons.com

Likely what is coming out of the breather from the vacuum canister will not stop if it is a older canister, the new ones do not do this. You need to get a wrist sweat band and put over it, or zip tie some type of rag around it, that is a very common problem. I just purchased Moroso new canister and it took care of that issue vs the older ones.

Injection is rather simple and I am sure you'll get it. A primer would be a great investment.

also this is way to much, and your high side is to much also.

Find a 0 1/2 pump and make it a simple deal.. 1 pumps can be tricky to get right sometimes IMO

First thing I would do is take your dyno sheets, throw them in the trash and forget about them. How they ended up with a system that fat and good numbers is beyond me but that is another matter all together.

Second, as has been stated by some experienced members, drop back to an 80 main and pull .004 at a time, I'm sure we all think you will end up in the 90's but say 80 just to be on the safe side.

I always do my warm up and drive through the pits with the handle pulled a little over 1/2 way. I also always run the water pump to keep the heat even through the heads.

If you continue to pull severe amounts of oil from the valve cover, run a baffle over the fitting inside the valve cover. At the end of an 8 pass race day I will usually have a couple ounces of oil and 6 or 7 ounces of methanol and condensation in the tank.

David has a valid point on the pump. I know this is apples and oranges in this post because i'm running Toilet bowl, but i was running a 0-1/2 pump with a 4.1 Toilet bowl, i didn't flush out the pump for about 2 months between races. bottom line i was running between .085 and .095 pill. The pump locked up and broke the drive belt. I installed a 0-1 pump, went back to the track. i made a couple passes trying to get it right. The largest pill i had was a .135 where i was able to make a somewhat decent pass. It was still so fat i scrubbed off 3 MPH and 2 tenths slower. Fortunately i have a couple pumps and am now running a "0" pump with a .070 pill and back on target.

JMO

Zip.

Thanks for the input Hammer.

I will definitely change to 39 main and an 85 pill and see what that does.

I am guilt of leaving the fuel shut off all the way in. Like I said, when I pulled it out to lean the engine and try to build heat, the idle RPM increased to 2200. Did I pull it out too far?

I don't run EGT or O2 sensors, so I don't have that data.

I bought the Terminator 1060 new from Ron's.

The vacuum pump is new from Moroso:
Pump #22840
Breather Tank #85500

I will try the wrist band idea, it sounds like it should work. My breather sits up in the airflow, so I did make the run with a piece of duct tape over the forward facing area of the breater screen to stop the high speed air from being forced into the breather can.
I am going to build a small aluminum shroud around the oil intake fitting inside the valve cover.

Instead of changing the fuel pump, can I put my high speed bypass back in with the spring set at 85 psi? That should regulate the fuel pressure.

The idle will increase as you pull out the fuel shut off, this is normal. Think of it at starving it for fuel a bit to build temp (bascially like a lean out for a carb in a sense) You MUST only be at full fuel from the burnout book to the turn off at the end of the track, it puts to much fuel in at idle if not and this is most of your issue I am sure.

There can be a fine line sometimes on in to far and out to far, 2200 isnt bad and might be a good spot for it, you'll know as it will die if its out to far.

The wrist band deal does work, many people use this for a band-aid fix for the issue. The moroso canister to get is No. 85467

You can run a high speed to fix the 1 pump, but its all a pressure deal and a 0 1/2 would be a quick fix, maybe call Enderle and see if they can re-size it ?

Let me know if I can help you with the injection any further.

I changed today to 39 main nozzles and an 80 pill. I cleaned out the breather, it was full of very milky oil. Emulsified and thick.
I also installed a Wolverine 500W oil pan heater.
I will fire it up tomorrow and lean it to warm it up. Then I'll drain and check the oil.

David has lot's of experience running Rons stuff, and he runs larger engines. my biggest engine is a 434" SM/BLK and it has Hilborn stacks on it. The 4.1 toilet bowl is on a 377" SM/BLK. I'm not a fan of James Monroe, because i've known Ron since the mid 80's when i lived i Phx Az. But i'm sure that David/hammer is spot on on the setup for your setup. No David i'm not kising up to you i just have a lot of respect for what you have done and accomplished with the Rons stuff. Enough said.

Zip.

My opinion, leave the 1 pump in it and tune the engine. I run a 1/2 pump on a stack injected small block. Leave the high speed in the tool box until you get the system tuned to the point of needing it.

Injection is pretty straight forward, but there is no way anyone here can get you on a dead nuts setup, it will still need to be tuned regardless.

There are plenty of books on injection, the one I believe is the best is HRE Fuel Injection Basics. There is also the option of sending the system to someone like Spud Miller or Ralph Gorr with your specs and having them set it up for you.

Thanks Zip :)

Like all injection is pretty straight foward, I've struggled in the past and decided enough was enough and learned the hard way. My last engine had the same setup in it for 4 years, a 1000hp motor is 39/80 all day, his 1 pump will be a tricky one to nail on the head and leave it alone.

Kod there is a 0 1/2 rons black pump on ebay. If it didnt cost me 40 cents a minute to talk to you in Canada from my cell, I'd run you through everything on the phone. If it comes down to it, I will still do this either way.

What does it idle at in gear (rpm) with the fuel shutoff all the way in ?

Thanks Hammer. If you PM me your number and when you are available, I can call you.

It idles at about 1000 RPM in gear with the shut off all the way in. In park, it idles at about 1600 RPM.

I drained the oil out of the engine today and recovered 14 quarts. 7 quarts of oil and about 7 quarts of methanol. The vacuum breater tank was full of emulsified oil. Thick as molassas. There is no doubt the injection system is very rich.
I changed oil and filter and cleaned everything up today. I will preheat the oil and change to an 80 pill and 39 nozzles in the AM. I will warm it up with the shut off part way out. Then pull a valve cover and check for milking.

Be sure not to run it much if it is that rich again, if it is leave the 38 in and go to a 80 to 90 pill. Make sure you do not leave that fuel shut off at full fuel until you get ready to start you burnout.

Here is the next installment in the milky oil saga:

- Put new oil in engine
- Installed #80 pill and left #38 nozzles in engine
- Heated oil pan to 110 degrees with pan heater
- Fired engine with fuel shut off all the way in
- Idling at 1500 RPM for 2 minutes. Engine vacuum at 13 inches
- Pulled fuel shut off out 1" and idle increased to 2200 RPM
- Engine vacuum still at 13 inches
- Engine temp increased to 150 degrees and engine vacuum dropped to 3 inches in 5 minutes
- Vacuum breather can emmitting steam / smoke like a '64 Chev with bad valve seals
- Chrome Dynatech headers on left engine bank turned beautiful shades of blue and yellow
- @#$%&*!!!
- The headers on the right engine bank are still chrome
- Shut engine down and pull valve cover
- No milky oil in heads

Questions:

Why did the vacuum drop so much when the engine heated up?
Why did only one side get so much heat as to blue the headers?
What's with so much alcohol steam coming out of the vacuum pump breather?
Does a 598 BBC make a good boat anchor?

Did better but, I can not stress enough about the fuel shut off needing to be fully in ONLY on the race track. Once it starts pull that bad boy out.

Vacuum dropping when when its warm, would tell me something isnt sealed internally when it warms up, do a warm leak down test and make sure the rings arent the issue ?

One side of the header is blue, possibly make sure none of the nozzels are plugged on either side, blue chrome headers can be cause from to lean or to rich (fuel burning in the header) .. I tossed the chromes years ago now, look on the internet for stuff called "blue out" buy a few things of it, and get ready for a lot of elbow work.

Steam out of the vacuum canister is normal to a point, how much is a lot ? like a train or like a exhaust on a cold day ?

I've never been a fan of a 598 tall deck motor, they never seem to run worth a darn. That being said, www.apdracing.com is building me a new 598 short deck motor right now and should be done in a few weeks, looking for north of 1050hp.

Thanks Hammer.

I am going to do a cold leakdown test, then heat it up and do a hot leakdown test.
The fact that I had nearly 2 gallons of methanol in the oil pan and none out of the exhaust, even when it was cold, indicates to me that there must be some huge bypass going on inside the engine.
The steam coming from the breather is like a train, and the car was inside a warm shop when I fired it up.
I post the results.

Right side running hotter than left could be caused by a number of things.

Nozzles are not designed or tested for low pressure flow, so it may even drop a couple of nozzles with the handled pulled out. Butterfly settings and intake reversion can also play a part. The nozzles are aerated, so they pull in air even if they aren't dropping the proper amount of fuel.

There is no exact setting for the butterflies and barrel valve, it varies with each combination. It's a little back and forth game, find the butterfly opening that gives the correct idle speed, then find the correct barrel valve setting that gives the proper amount of fuel at idle so it goes up on the converter clean. I set up at 2 flats rich from a clean hit on the transbrake, which happens to be 22%. .002 on the butterflies, idle out of gear at 1150, 1000 in gear.

The drop in vacuum could easily be caused by the oil being stripped from the vanes in the pump. I have found it best to drop a couple of ounces of oil in the pump before I fire the car for the first time that day.

Try not pulling the handle out so much.

Thanks ccperf.

I will double and triple check everything you mentioned.
I'll check the idle and the barrel valve leakdown and flush and lubricate the vacuum pump. Although the pump was working, because it was forcing steam out of the breather vent...like a steam engine.

I would think at 60 psi idling fuel pressure, all nozzles would be getting fuel.
I'm running an Edelbrock Sr intake.

And i will not lean it as much as I did. I'm sure I over did it. Hence the header discoloration.

If I remember correctly, Ron's barrel valves do not bypass fuel to the return line with the shutoff, it merely closes off the supply from the pump. If this is the case and you are taking your reading from the pump side it will not show nozzle pressure. Also you will get a big spike on the gauge when you lift off the throttle.

About the only time I use fuel pressure to reference anything is after the initial tuning is done I will throw a gauge on the nozzle side to get an idea of what pressure to start with on the high speed.

Most of injection tuning is by feel and time slips, you have to have a place to start so you use the basic measurements, barrel valve setting etc etc to get it running.

I agree with this,depending on which barrel Valve you have, it would have an idle bypass?check valve spring of about 15 lbs, which is closed off as soon as the throttle is cracked open about 15/20%. As hammer said the blue header could be either a lean or fuel burning in the header. I never have that problem :) because i ddon't use crome headers (sorry just being funny) I think the best thing would be to get it too the track and try some of the changes you have made. It's really hard to melt an engine down on a normally asperated engine, they either run good or they sputter. i'm not talking about a blown alcohol engine, because you can melt one down in a heartbeat ( I've done it ) Another thing comes to mind, most people run a spacer plate on the manifold this permotes better distribution in the manifold. I don't know if you are running one or not.

JMO

Zip.

Thanks for the advice zipper!
I have the gray barrel valve, no idle bypass and I have a 1" spacer under the Terminator.
I agree, I need to get it to the track. I would like to have the setup somewhat close before I go, so I don't have problems and spend the day wrenching instead of running.

Pulling the shut off out, did not blue your headers, being to rich blued your headers, when its lean they get gold. You need to find that fine line with the shutoff, keep it in all the way will indeed blue the headers and milk the oil and you'll be back to the same spot your at.

The engine was so rich, when I made the run at the track, that I gained nearly 2 gallons of methanol in the oil pan and the headers didn't dis-color at all.
When I changed from a #45 to a #80 pill and fired it in the shop, leaned out with the fuel shut off, the headers discolored.

Apples and oranges, that was on a run. not idling.

It sounds like we are giving you wrong advice, but trust me, and i've been running injection for over 40 yrs. and Hammer/David in my opinion has one of the best running Rons systems in the country. I just wish i could afford his engine. I know it sounds like it won't be right, but when the smoke clears you will be able to look back at everything that has been said, and say dogone this injection is so simple, it's easier than tripping over a log. Actually i've been running injection and blown systems since 1964, and still do today.

Zip.

Handle pulled out until the engine idles at 2200 RPM and it's too rich. OK...

Chrome headers ... turn blue when rich ... gold when lean just how it is, of course I've only dealt with chrome headers for 8 years :shock:

Apparently I dont know anything about injection so I am done helping at this point ... Kod if you contiune to have issues email or call Monroe he'll also steer you into the correct direction, you combo is not much unlike 100's of bigger BBC motor around the country .. there is a reason we all end up close to the same tune-up.

Thanks Zip :) Your right my combo just flat works and copies time slips to the ten thousands for a reason. :wink: I am in the middle on doing a new motor, this one should be a bad dude when its done.

David,
I didn't mean to insult your expertise. I was just confused why the headers didn't blue when the engine was rich at the track. I was only stating what I saw and trying to make sense of it.
I appreciate all the help I get on here, including yours, and I NEVER said you didn't know anything about injection.

I did a leakdown test. The engine was cold and no oil was put into the cylinders before the test. Here are the results:

#1 : 9%
#2 : 15%
#3 : 9%
#4 : 21%
#5 : 6%
#6 : 16%
#7 : 8%
#8 : 8%

The test was conducted using 100 psi and was repeated twice with pretty much the same results.

I plan on warming the engine up and repeating the leakdown test on warm engine.

That's a lot of difference from the left bank to the right. Do you have file fit rings or Z gaps. If they are file fit it will decrease on the leak down when warm, but it's the big difference that concerns me. Maybe 6 to 8% with file fit COLD, should be the limit, unless you're running a blown/ supercharged engine.

JMO

Zip.

The rings are file fit and the engine is natural aspirated.
It was the bank with the least leakdown that blued the headers. Could the two facts be connected?
I have a feeling that this new engine is going to have to be opened up again. Now I have to find a good BBC guy in my area. Crap!!

Before you pull it down do a cold compression check, then a hot compression check, it could be a lot of factors, too much piston to wall clearance, rings not properly file fit. I'm thinking that the rings may be wiped out and possible cylinders scored from way too rich. A well sealed cylinder will definately run hotter than a cylinder with a lot of blow by.

JMO

Zip.

Thanks Zipper.
I will run another cold test and a couple of hot ones tomorrow and post the results. I am concerned that the overly rich conditins may have washed oil off the cylinder walls and lead to some scoring or ring damage.
When the engine was fresh and run on the dyno, without the vacuum pump, there seemed to be a lot of pressure in the crankcase. I had leaks from the pan gasket, rear seal and intake gaskets.
Your statement about the tighter cylinders running hotter makes a lot of sense.
BTW, all cylinders seemed to be leaking to the crankcase only. I couldn't detect any intake, exhaust or head gasket leaks.

Hot leakdown test was even worse. Pulled engine and sent it the engine builder to be checked out.

Smart move, before you ran it again.

JMO

Zip.

I do learn....it just takes me a while.
I'm gonna put on a 0 1/2 pump, 80 pill and 39 nozzles and tune from there.

:wink:

Parts
 

I Can HOOK you up with ALL of those PARTS,INCLUDING a Nice T-2 Terminator and a Primer +.Just Posted the Whole System,in the Classifieds.
Hope things are NOT to bad,and maybe a Finish Hone and a set of Rings.....?
Later
G