Beware of Richard Norman in Hammond, IN.!!
 

I need some help from the forum. I have been dealing with richard norman in a deal to buy my '67 mcamis t/s vette. We came to an agreement on a price after many many phone calls and pics of numerous points of the car were sent. He mailed me a personal check for 500.00 to hold the car for 10-14 days in order for him to get his finances in order. I know not to take a personal check for any goods to be exchanged but didn't think much about doing the deposit this way. Of coarse the check would have to clear his bank before releasing the car to him. I first deposited the check and it came back NSF. I talked with him and was told to run it again and the next time it came back with a stop payment on it. He has since acted like a coward and will not answer or return my calls to tell me what happen. I have charges with my bank now do to his FAKE MONEY. So what i am asking of the forum is; do i have any chance of turning this check over to the authorities and getting any kind of reimbursement or self satisfaction? Thanks, Keith

Well how loing has this been going on?? If it has been going on for awhile then what I would do is just go ahead and chock up the money from the bank charges and move on my merry way. It is better to lose a few bucks then a lot. Thats is my own opinion

It has been about 10 days since i last got the check back from the bank and probably 3 days since i tried to call him last. It isn't so much the deposit as it is the point. He didn't get something for nothing but did cost me some bank fees and lots of time(many of the phone calls came while i was at work). I am curious if i turn the check over to the authorities if it would be the same as if he were writing a check to walmart. Is it a felony or mistemenor offence? Thanks, Keith

Im with dirka on this one write this one off, you could ask him for the charges but will probably send you an other check just like the dud you have. lucky you didn't give him the car!!

If his check isn't any good then you know he isn't good for any money's owed, I really think i would just cut my losses and forget it :!: :!:



''JUST MY TWO CENT'S WORTH''

Check!
 

Keith,
UNFORTUNATLY,this is the Way of the New World,Isnt amazing how you can send a MILLION Pictures and spend Hours on the Phone and Computer putting a Deal together?Then as Quick as a GunShot they are GONE!
Maybe Hes on The FEDERAL TASK Force,you know its OK for them Guys to pull this S#!T!At least they think so?
Take the 30-35.00 Charges as an EXPERIENCE,could have been worse?
It just Realy BURNS My AZZ that they pull this and Its OK!
Later
G 8)

He is passing bad checks- You should make some headway with LE on this I would think since he could be doing it to others. Start with your local LE. Get a contact at the bank. You might even call the bank it was drawn on in his state. No luck with local LE, go to LE in his home state.

Now, and I am not sure of this, but I am going to bet there are interstate laws that would address this type of thing. Id also guess under federal law.

Sooooooooooooo you need to do some Internet research, find out whether this might meet the base definition of racketeering. Then report to the FBI.

And when someone says you went to great lengths over a small amount, remind them you have no idea the scope of his scams or potential illegal activities, so reporting this is your duty.

Id guess you could at least extract $50 of payback.

And when you do- send him a christmas card and tell him I said hi.

Scorp

SORRY SCORP, it does not work that way... at least in New Mexico.

As a check and fraud crimes investigator of 21 years, I can absolutely confirm that in order for there to be a crime involved in this, there HAS TO be something of tangible material or services value received by the suspect issuing the check.

A check that has been taken on hold for downpayment, but NOTHING was ever transferred to the suspect, is not worth the toilet paper it was written on.

AND, circumstantial fees incurred by trying to cash this check prior to any transfer of goods or services does not constitute criminal intent on the part of the suspect.

NOTE! Future advice to EVERYONE... if you take the check to YOUR bank,
and ask them to run a "clearance check" on it BEFORE depositing it, the clerks will graciously do it for you as a security courtesy to make sure the check is not stolen or bogus before any attempts to complete an actual transaction causes a giant nightmare for many people.
Your bank would rather stop a fraud attempt BEFORE it happens than to let you (and them) become a victim with weeks of criminal investigations and prosecutions. I cannot remember all the hundreds of "Pre-Screening" investigations I worked with the banks.

Sorry Spruell, the fees were incurred because of YOUR actions, not his, and the cops, the District Attorney and the banks will not be able to help you... again, at least in New Mexico.
If your state is different I would be highly surprised, as most financial laws apply equally and consistantly across the entire nation.
Fortunately this was a cheap lesson learned, and I wish the entire world would do away with checks altogether.
Next time insist the buyer completes an electronic bank transfer into your account which will be guaranteed and protected from insufficient or reversal games, unless you choose to return it to the buyer for some reason. If he does not have the agreed upon funds in a legitimate bank account to make such transaction... RUN, RUN, RUN... because he most likely will never have the remaining money to complete the deal anyway.

Jim

Interesting-

So if you have a verbal agreement, supported my electronic communication, you are saying this does not constitute a contract, and that the check is not prepayment owed of the amount due?

Essentially that seems like its saying that no contract is enforceable if its not in writing.

So:

* An agreement was made between two parties.- check
*A price was determined-check
*Arrangements were made for pick up and delivery-check
*terms and conditions albeit primitive were determined-check
*A prepayment of the amount due was sent and received-check
*A bad check was issued- check

But in new Mexico this is NOT a contract?

Respectfully Jim, I am going to take my chance in the Court. It costs $25 to file in Small claims and its cheap to contact LE.

However, its easy enough to get a legal opinion, and I will run by my Corporate Counsel.

BTW- how does the issuance of a bad check equate to Spruell's action if he did not write it?

I appreciate that you were a fraud investigator, I'm just a lowly Finance guy with an MBA in business-

Scorp

Ok Scorp, lets clarify something here... you are talking about TWO different issues.
#1 - you are talking about criminal intent of issuing worthless checks with intent to commit a crime. In that matter I confirm there will be no CRIMINAL prosecution aginst the buyer. The electronic communication is just preliminary sales negotiations, not a legal and binding issue until the final deal has been COMPLETED.

#2 - you are talking about a contract agreement, which is NOT a criminal matter, it is a CIVIL complaint for which NO JAIL TIME or CRIMINAL RECORD can be imposed by the courts. These court hearings are intended to correct a wrong by someone which DEOS NOT violate the criminal statues of law. It is almost alway for MONETARY DAMAGES ONLY.

Now, as far as the old "Gentleman's Handshake Agreement" rule... well, some states still recognise that grandfathered law, some don't.

Yes, the check is prepayment of the amount owed, but the check is not legally binding UNTIL the buyer receives the goods or services for conversion to his own use.

The check can be returned or torn up at any time by the seller, and the goods not delivered to the buyer (as long as the check is not cashed)without repercussion from the buyer.

The buyer can "Stop Payment" on that check at any time as long as he HAS NOT RECEIVED any goods or services of value for that check payment.

I agree with your checklist, however the issues are "grey area" argument and does not fall under the criminal codes for prosecution of a crime.

Now, as far as filiing a claim on small claimes court, yes you can do that for CIVIL wrongs compalaint, but let me clue you into this...

IF the judge sides with you and makes the buyer pay up the $500 deposit the check was intended for, he will also force you to complete the original sales agreement and will force the buyer to pay up the entire sales amount in full within so many days, and before you must deliver the item to the buyer.

This is not a problem on your end, because that is what you wanted all along, but THAT IS ALL the judge can do... he CANNOT punish the buyer for issuing an issuficient funds check to HOLD the item until he could pay the remainder of the full amount, or the WHOLE amount upon receipt while asking you to return or tear up that check.

That worthless check is no more than an "I-Owe-You" note to hold that item, until a transfer of goods or services is completed... UNLESS, the original agreement was for a "Non-Refundable Deposit", in which that opens up another whole can of worms the judge will have to take into consideration. In some states that is legal, some it is not.

Hey, I appreciate the debate... I am just trying to help, no problem. Good luck on the civil case, and PLEASE let me know how it turns out. I am curious how the courts rule in your jurisdiction.
You will probably prevail in completing this sale in full, but don't expect a black-eye on the buyer when it is all said and done...

Jim

Also, in Spreull's case, what I was referring to is having YOUR bank do a "courtesy request transaction" to see if the issued check has the funds in the account ready for payment.
If the clerk finds out from the issuing bank that there are NOT sufficient funds in the account to cover that check at that present time, she will not let you deposit it into your account, or let you attempt to cash it.
It only takes a minute, but saves hours of heartbreak frustration...
Jim

And Yes Scorp, I realize this is Spruell's case, not yours, but I was conversing with both of you (and everyone else who is watching this) st the same time in open public dialog.
Also, everyone please excuse my typing errors, I got in a hurry and forgot to use spellcheck... :oops:

Jim

Not interested in a debate so I'll pass.

I know whats been successful for me, but lets just leave it Spruell to determine whats best for him.

later

Thanks for the input guys. The deposit was a non-refundable transaction but that was also a verbal agreement between the two of us. I have decided to turn the check over to the DA's office tomorrow and see what comes of it. I haven't thought about a civil suit yet but if the DA's office denies my request that may be an alternative action. I know that its only 500.00's but a courtesy call from him with an explanation would have been worth a thousand words or in this case 500.00. What ever happen to a man and his word? I will post back tomorrow and let you guys in the forum know what the DA's office has to say. Thanks again,keith

Spurell:

I hear you. A man's word... not the same today as it used to be. Now, we need disclaimers, lawyers/court appointed attorneys, judges, waivers, DNA samples, 500pg. closing doc's, rectal exam's, co-signers, lien holder position, extra insurance, etc.... it is sad.

You forgot right to first born child...Yes, it's sad, I miss those days.
Dave

Word?
 

I just Reread your Initial responce?My Reply was because I NEVER seen anything in the Ad that said a Word about a DEPOSIT?I did see the Word Hold,but NOT DEPOSIT?
Dont get me wrong,but The Way of the World is just............well just Forget it?
Good Luck!
later
G 8)

Yes, it was a deposit or down payment on the car. On the memo section of his check he wrote 500.00 deposit and then wrote what the remaining balance was and also wrote(described)what he was paying for. I took it to the DA's office today and they turned me to the police jury. They(da's office) said that when the check came back nsf it was a a matter that they handle but when it was ran the second time and it came back stop payment it became a civil suit matter. I am now waiting for a call back from the police jury. I'll post more details as they develope. keith

So LE said it was a valid criminal complaint until the check had a stop payment placed on it at which time it became a civil case. This tracks to my two posts before the fraud Investigator told me it didnt work that way.

Seems we Finance guys arent so dumb after all. :)

Good Luck,

Scorp

Ok, Now wait just a minute! I didn't hear Spreull say ANYTHING about telling the DA that the buyer HAD NOT RECEIVED ANYTHING OF TANGIBLE VALUE FOR THE CHECK YET!

If he had, I GUARANTEE the DA would have said. "Oh, well in that case then, the check was only an "I-Owe-You" hold to secure that [Spruell] did not sell it to anyone else before buyer had a chance to complet the full purchase with the ENTIRE FULL amount in CASH or a combo of now-sufficient funds check and remaining balance upon trade of goods.

Yes the DA DOES take NSF checks, but ONLY if ALL of the ELEMENTS of the statute have been met...

Geeesh Scorp... I though we were all suppose to be friends helping friends out here with bits of advice each one of us has some or a lot of expertice in. I din't know this was a playground for bragging "my weenie is bigger than your weenie, and I am smarter than you are, na na na na!"

Ok, Scorp, you win... two slams in a row... yes, I am just one big ignorant dumbass of no value to this site, so I will keep my mouth shut and let you all have your fun by yourselves...

If anyone else sees any bullshit nonsnese in my attempt to be helpful posts, please let me know and I will retract all my ignorant revelations!

Or, if anyone thinks Scorp has crossed over the line, please let me know that too... if you are not scared of him and not affraid he will slam you too.

You go Scorp the Bully... attack everyone, friend and foe alike... good job man... you're the MAN! You're head has gotten too big there, big man!

Sorry Dennis, I guess I was not a good choice to invite to your forum after-all, so I will just go away now... thanks anyway!

Most everyone here told Spruell to FORGET IT.
They can't ALL be ironclad cases before you tell someone that they
should fight back.

At lease Scorp gave some advise, to try and do something, may have
got the job done too, 'cept for a little glitch.

SPRUELL1, Hope you make this A$$CLOWN pay, or at least give him
a black eye in your fight back with him.

drtrcr22, your advice and imformation is valued here, any ideas and experence at chasing down scammers is a welcome asset to this forum, Do not be discuraged from contributing your knowlege because of a spirited debate . the more information the better. jmo, mike

X2

You are allowed to have your opinion, as is anyone else on this public board or any other- but I do find your near personal attack interesting. Seems a bit high-strung almost.

So what exactly offended you? That I pointed out you are a Fraud investigator? You disclosed that, you also noted in an earlier post that you had been doing it for 21 years I believe. So obviously you proud of it- and why shouldnt you be?

Not that I really care.

Stick around if you want, add your opinions, and maybe help someone, make some friends and probably a few enemies as well- thats just the way the chips fall.

And if you want to get personal feel free- thats your perogative. Just make sure you have your facts straight when you do :)

Scorp

:)

OK BOYS---BACK TO YOUR CORNERS 8) 8) 8) 8)

DRTRCR22---FIRST--PLEASE DO NOT TAKE OFFENSE AT SCORP[HE IS ONLY 21 YRS OLD :cry: :cry: :cry: ] BLIND IN ONE EYE /AND CAN'T HERE OUT OF EITHER EAR :? :?
BUT-HE IS STILL A GREAT GUY!!!!!!!!
YOU GAVE YOUR OPINION OF THE LAW IN YOUR STATE AND WE THANK YOU FOR THAT[ ALL INFO IS IMPORTANT]
SCORP HAS DONE ALOOOT OF GOOD ON HERE FOR OTHER GUYS TO GET THERE DEALS FIXED AND THE SCAMMERS BUSTED--BUT IT IS A GROUP EFFORT BY ALOT OF GUYS ON HERE AT TIMES[WE ALL HATE CROOKS!!!! :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: ]
WE WELCOME YOU ON HERE AND YOU JUST HAVE TO LEARN TO PUT UP WITH CRAP FROM THE OTHER GUYS AT TIMES[WE DO NOT ALWAYS AGREE :shock: :shock: ] BUT WE ARE ALL IN THIS FORUM TO HELP EACH OTHER OUT :lol: :lol:

PLEASE -TAKE A CHILL PILL AND RELAX AND JOIN IN :wink: :wink: :wink:
THANKS LIVELY

Yeah :!: :!: What ''Lively Said :!: Give him a Hurmph :!: :!:



''JUST MY TWO CENT'S WORTH''

I feel this site is Very lucky to have DRTRCR22 and Scorp......Nothing wrong with a little dis-agreement...these 2 Guys are Sharp and gonna take some strong positions on certain issues

You guys are 2 Great Tool's ( members) to have on this site...lets eat some Turkey and come back fighting the Scammers......

I'm 22.

:)

Scorp

Ok this is for DRTRCR22 and Scorpion1110........

Cant we just get along with each other?? Having both of you work together instead of against will make this section awesome to the point that we all will be unstoppable at putting scammers where they should be. Having each of your experience together will start making people think about scamming anybody on RJ which in turn will turn this site into one of the best sites to be on. Im not saying that it is not already but, people will come on here and not have to worry about getting scammed out of their hard earned money in this troubling time. This aint whos got the biggest pair. This is a family here and we welcome new members like they are family right from the beginning. Now I know that will be times where we might butt heads but I say lets just put this all behind us and start from scratch with a clean sheet of paper. I guess all I am asking is can we get this behind us and start getting to what this section is here for and that is putting scammers where they belong??

Ok, I will be man enough to apologise and say I'm Sorry for getting out of line... It just struck me wrong why Iwas getting jumped on when I knew the right asnwer, in almost ALL of the States in the USA. It was my job to know of find out these laws in the state criminal statute books for many states, and all I was trying to do is help with some good information.
I will try to spell correctly too... :)

Thank you. It takes a big man to apologize. Sometimes pride does get in the way to see clearly. You have my respect for doing what you just did. Not that you didnt have it anyways.

Also bou the spelling nobody is perfect. Well maybe I am but I am not here to brag. :twisted: :P

I keep the webster's next to me at all times to help me sound smart. :wink:

And sometimes it still dont help. :lol: :lol: :twisted:

thats fer sure :lol: :lol:

Lets get a few things clear ok?
 

Heres the post where you "got jumped on"- Its the only post that I EVER directed to you (11/24/2009 @ 11:37):

SPRUELL1 wrote:
Yes, it was a deposit or down payment on the car. On the memo section of his check he wrote 500.00 deposit and then wrote what the remaining balance was and also wrote(described)what he was paying for. I took it to the DA's office today and they turned me to the police jury. They(da's office) said that when the check came back nsf it was a a matter that they handle but when it was ran the second time and it came back stop payment it became a civil suit matter. I am now waiting for a call back from the police jury. I'll post more details as they develope. keith


Scorp "So LE said it was a valid criminal complaint until the check had a stop payment placed on it at which time it became a civil case. This tracks to my two posts before the fraud Investigator told me it didnt work that way.

Seems we Finance guys arent so dumb after all.

Good Luck,

Scorp"

Since that point you have found it absolutely necessary to tell everyone how important you are, including this gem from November 25 at 9:31 pm:

"Hey Synder, well at least I enjoyed hearing your concerns.
Yeah, expect to get slammed on here if you think you might have a little bit of knowledge to share, or pose the mind game threat to anyone's genius manhood.
I tried to lend some adivse on another thread, and wound up becoimg the target for some reason!
Apparently my 21 years duty as as a certified commisioned criminal police detective investigating internet fraud cases with the NM AG's office, the FBI, Interpol, RMIN, and Secret Service tracking down suspects throughout the UK, Australia and Canada mean absolutely nothing to Einsteins like Scorpion with his big bad MBA degree on the wall.
So don't feel preganant Snyder, apparently you are not educated enough or experienced enough to add your two cents in this click either...

Jim

Go ahead Mods... ban me... see if I care... I am now only on here to see what imbecile comments and slams come next...!
Its called sick humor entertainment..."

We are NOT THAT IMPORTANT, the folks that got scammed are- so Grow up and check your ego at the door Sport.

To the Forum Team-

Our goal is common- to help those who need help.

As for Jim Boutelle- welcome to the Forum, you have been a member for 13 days - You have knowledge but no humility. When you get that you will be a dangerous adversary for any Scammer and far more than I'd ever be.

I respect your knowledge and experience.

With that said I will coexist with you, respect you, and support you where necessary. Because that is the only way we can help those that got scammed.

Thats it Gentlemen.

Scorp

nicely said Scorp,,,,now HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO YOU ALL ,,,AND TOMORROW WE WILL BE BACK STRONGER THAN EVER WITH NEW HELP , WATCH OUT DEADBEATS AND MIKE 2124 :lol: