BBC 572 questions.
 

Hi
I'm building a BBC for my 64 Malibu and I have a couple off questions.
I need a cam for the engine and do not know where to turn I'm thinking Solid roller?? and I would also like to know what you guys think will it be a good combo? and I'm also interested in comments about the rocker are they any good?

spec.
Dart big M block 10.2" 4.5"bore
Jesel belt drive
Eagle 4.5"stroke
Eagle Hbeam rods L-19
JE pistons 8.5:1
AFR 357 heads
Jesel sportsman rockers
Bds intake
Kuhl 14-71
dual 1250 dominators

The engine will use pump gas and be a street/strip car

Gratefull for any advise!

thanx

I think that will be a killer street engine but if you are going to hit hard and often i would step up on the rocker arms i have ran the sportsman rockers and have broken those quit a few times.
also depends on how much spring pressure you are running

X2 spring pressure and cam lift.

Zip.

I'm trying to find out what would be a good cam and when I know that I will know what springs to use.
I have a vision off under .800 lift but spring pressure is still a big ?


BTW

Will the Eagle parts be up for the task? I've heard that people say that they will hold 1500hp and I'm glad if i reach 1000hp so it should not be o problem right!?

Your list of parts is immpressive, the only thing I dont like is them weak Jesels.
I'd spring for some T/D's and be done with it.

Cams are not my fortay so keep at it on this one, there are guys on here that will chime in soon, be patient.

Eagle stuff is only a good as the final machining, double check everything or take it to your local machine shop and have them check it out.
Don't buy into their "fully internally balanced" selling point either - it's roughed in to say the least.
Pay the extra dough to get a good spin job, you'll be surprised how far out their "fully internally balanced" kits are.

After getting the green light on the machining and a good balance job it will handle 1K HP easy.

JMO>Cp

x2 on the eagle only being as good as the machine shop installing it.
Same goes with the jesel if they are installed correct they are fine, I've ran all versions of the jesel and all have been awesome. I always see t/d's breaking at the track and not jesel.

That's funny, I always see Jesel's breaking.
I've been running a used set of T/D's on my 496 for 2 years now - zero problems.

Cp

Dahlton, I sent you a pm

UDHAROLD would be the first person to find for a cam

cam king is also very respected here

comp cams Mr goldman is supposed to be verrrry knowledgeable.

if no luck with udharold or cam king here try speedtalk.com they should be there for sure

Thanx guys for the feedback.

The rotating assembly is NOT a balanced package. The machine shop that will be used has built several high horsepower engines so I trust the guys.

Ok, I'll be patient. I'm in no hurry because I will hopefully run next summer.

yep ultradyne or comp cams...call them with what you are building they can suggest a grind or build one to your needs...

Call Rob Adler at A-Team auto. Tell him what you're doing with it and he'll suggest something appropriate. http://local.yahoo.com/info-17315130...ed-tinley-park

You might remember Rob/Randy Adler from having the fastest street car on the planet back in the late 90s. Was a 67 GTO. They now race Super Chevy Nitro Coupe.

Ditch the 4.5" stroke. It makes too much torque, especially with the roots blower. 4.25" stroke should be max or it'll be a bitch to hook up. Centrifugal blower guys can get away with longer stroke cranks because they can stage the boost. Us roots guys can't.

Donovan gear drive over Jesel belt, in case you ever decide to go to a front mag drive. Bigger carbs... Don't starve that blower for air.

I was planing on using dual Ron's terminators but it is an money issue so i tought that I'll use the carbs to start with, and see how it works.
I will spin the motor 6500-7000rpm and canot use that much boost because I will run on pump gas.

I have gone over the stroke in my head many times and always as confused... but I think that I'll go with the 4.5" because I have that all ready and I have 17" wide slicks so I hope that they will grab atleast something.

Why twin Ron's terminators when an Enderle is the industry standard for a blower?

If you ever decide to upgrade blowers, the newer ones don't use a full length top opening. The opening is only ~10" front to rear. This will create issues in mounting those terminators.

Get ya a Bird/Buzzard hat when you decide to move over to injection and be done with it.

The only reason for the terminators would be air cleaner options.
I want to use an air cleaner just to make me sleep better at night.
I don't like the looks off the air cleaners that Enderle people use.

Good to know about the new blowers. on my blower the "rear" part of the intake opening is a little bigger than the front. and bottom is a fully open.

BTW is there a manufacturer that makes carb adapters for 14-71 blowers or do I need to make one my self?

http://www.rbssuperchargers.com/Page...D=3921&Search=

They should have the adapter you need.

www.rbssuperchargers.com and www.dragparts.com are going to be your two best sources for the majority of blower stuff you'll need.

As for an air filter...

Unless you're driving around in sandy Nevada, or in corn fields of the midwest, I wouldn't sweat no air cleaner too much.

Electronic or mechanical injection with a bird catcher will make so much more power than a carb its not even funny (especially if you go with alky).

How much boost you plan on running with that 14/71 on the street.

Hammer I am with you. I have had pretty good luck with Jesel Pro Comp series & T&D rockers, I have ran the sportsmans rockers on small block blower motors with no problems, but never on a bbc. Reason being, I have just always had good luck with the Jesel pro series & never thought about trying something different.

OneBad has made 3 really good points you should really think about
considering. If there is anyone on this site with an overwhelming amount of knowlege pertaining to blower applications; OneBad is the man...........

1) If you really want to have fun with your BBC, lower that stroke. keep it between 3.625 to 4.250. Depending on my application, I perfer using 3.625 thru 4.00 strokes for BBC blower applications. I understand everything is already bought, but the bottom end of your motor is the foundation of your power plant.... and should be built factoring in the type of chassis it is scheduled to be installed in and your expectations of the driving applications i.e. prostreet driving or Track only..

When driving on that dusty black to heading to your local burger joint, 900+++ ft. lbs of torque could make for a bad afternoon ride.

2) Put a injection hat on that bad boy. I am sure you can purchase a really nice used enderle bird already set up for about the same price of those carbs.

3) Run Alcohol. If you really want to know what having fun is all about, there ain't nothing better than combining Alcohol injection with a blower application. Trust me you'll be thanking OneBad for that suggestion.

Converting to and running alcohol on a street rod is not difficult at all.

For the street I would not go over .700 lift on the cam, but TJMO.
You'll have plenty of HP & torque to spin those 17 inch tires on the black top.. It may also reduce your top end maintenance and possibly reduce parts failure.

Good Luck w/ your build. Keep us posted. We'ed like to here about your HP & Torque numbers. Post a few pics as you progress.,...

I'm not sure about boost pressure. I'll have to find out how much boost pump gas can handle maybe 10-18psi? I was hoping that I would not have to spin the blower so fast that's why I bought a 14-71.

Alky would be sweet! so I could use higher boost, the only problem is that I cant buy it from the stations around here we have 95 and 98 octane and also Shell v-power. (I live in Finland (northern Europe)).

I'll post some pictures when I start to assemble the engine.

I build the engine with one goal and that is to have black on white that it makes OVER 1000hp

The whole idea with this build is to get a ridicilous engine for an street legal classic american car that can blow the shit outoff all the turbo jap's that we have around here. It is really interested to hear about their cars turn 10sec in the quarter with only minor turbo upgrades but still you never see them at the tracks...

Check with commercial industrial chemical suppliers.

You can buy drums of methanol for dirt cheap, that have certificates of purity.

To ensure you're getting a pure product, you can also buy a hydrometer for as little at 57.00 to check the water content on the spot. If the drum has more than .5% water, don't take it.

http://www.goodvibesracing.com/hydrometers.htm

The stuff I buy here in the states is certified to 99.99% pure methanol.

Once you use methanol as a roots blower fuel, you'll NEVER EVER want to even consider gasoline for anything but your tow rig (unless you have a diesel).

You did yourself a favor in getting the big blower. Slowing the rotors down helps with keeping the air cool, but Kuhl has been out of business for quite a while now and there's quite a few better blowers out (even for gas).

The imports have a HUGE advantage in gas, simply because they're running centrifugal blowers or turbos, and have the ability to inter cool the air. Roots doesn't have that ability, and as such it's hard to get a cool, dense intake charge on anything but alky.

I was planing on using a wather/alky injection for cooling the air at higher boost (when racing).

Do you have any idea how much boost it would make if I run it approx 1:1?

BTW
Who makes the best Roots blowers theese days? I heard alot off good things about Kuhl superchargers when Mike Kuhl had his business.

Also one reason why I'm using carbs is that I've heard that part throttle "cruising" is impossible with a Birdcatcher, that it is sort of an on/off throttle?

Alky injection will help, but it doesn't come close to the volume of fuel needed to cool that blower, especially when it's under boost.

572 CID, 14-71 (about 520 CID Blower) at 1:1 will make approximately 12 PSI, with a final compression of 15.5:1.

Using the formula of {(CID X RPM) / 3456} X {Boost / 14.7) + 1} = CFM required, I can tell you that at 7000 RPM the motor will use ~2103 CFM. At 8000 RPM it'll use about 2400 CFM.

With just mild boost, and typical drag racing RPMs, you're coming woefully close to maxing out the carbs.

Best roots are going to be DMPE, PSI, SSI, Kobelco, Gibson-Miller, followed by Littlefield, Mooneyham, then the rest.

As for injection on the street, I would characterize it more as idle, high idle, WFO. I've driven injection on the street since 1995. Injection doesn't have nearly the resistance in your foot feel that a carb does because it uses ball bearings on the throttle shaft instead of bushing. It's very smooth. It can be controlled easily with a much better precision. Once you get used to it, it's not a big deal at all, just dont let your girlfriend jump behind the wheel or you'll be roasting the tires as soon as she hits the throttle.

No worries! she can't even start it.... :D i have to main switches one in the car and one outside one power switch for the ignition and last the start button it is way too complicated for my toyota driving better half.


I was hoping that I would not have to turn it more than 7000 well 7500 max.

Maybe 8000rpm alky injected 540cid will be a nice EVO2 version

maybe to make things even worse I could use nitrous for cooling? the intake is already drilled!

If you bottle the blower, you want the nitrous going in the top, not in the ports.

A 100 shot would do a world of good, simply from the cooling.

On gas guzzling pro street cars I will run a 100 shot when I stick my foot through the floor.
Its no where near the response of Alky, but it wakes her up a bit...

So now I'm starting to think things over.
I think that I'll sell the carbs and buy a birdcatcher.
then sell the eagle crank and rods
and buy a callies magnum crank and oliver billet rods
and last but not least use e85 fuel

now two questions. if I swap from the 4.5 stroke to 4.25 stroke and want to use the JE pistons I have I need a rod that is 0.25 longer then the rod that I would use with the 4.5 stroke crank RIGHT? now I have a 6.535 rod so the new would have to be 6.785, and because oliver do not have a "shelf" rod in tha messure the next would be 6.800 that should not be a problem if the block is 10.200 and not 10.180 like it sayes in the JE catalog. they also have a shorter rod 6.735 would that be better?

Second how much HP can a Dart big M block handle with the ductile caps? (no billet).

Little late to be making those kinds of changes now.

If you already have the pistons/rods/crank... Either sell what you don't need and buy what you do, or live with the combo you picked out.

I wouldn't try and 1/2 ass it myself. If your 4.5" arm is new, more than likely they'll let you trade it in for a new 4.25 for just the cost of shipping.

If it's a tall deck (I didn't re-read the entire thread), your best rod for ring pack and rod length will be a 6.7" rod.

If the pistons are 'shelf' pistons and not customs, you may be able to swap them out too.

Don't know anyone running E85, nor have I ever messed with it. So if you go that route, you better have a competent tuner handy.

Main caps are more sensitive to RPM than power. I'm throwing 1600 HP at my GM Bowtie block nodular caps and the mains look brand new. Plans (if it doesnt sell first) are to go to upwards of 2200.

The rod length change would 1/2 the stroke change .250 less stroke needs .125 longer rod to use the same piston.Bill.

I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF TOO MUCH TORQUE, ESPECIALLY ON PUMP GAS,, I WOULDNT DETUNE WHAT YOU GOT, EASE INTO THE THROTTLE IF ALL ELSE FAILS.. MIGHT TAKE MORE TIME ON SUPENSION SETUP ALSO.. SOUNDS LIKE A SWEET SETUP AND I WISH YOU THE BEST OF LUCK..

New question!

Header size?? any suggestions?

2-3/8 to 2-1/2" primaries, by 4.5 or 5" collector.

Thank's! your help is highly valued.

Is there a good reason why to use a bird catcher why not go with the buzzard straight away?

Bird
 

Either will Work FINE!
If you have access to a Bird Use it,a Buzzard use it?
You will see Very little Advantage of the Buzzard over the Bird?
Its more of a Preference thing..........?
Later
G 8)

The only kit I found was Hooker weldup. 2 3/8 and 4.5"

are there a weldup kit with 2.5" and 5" collector any brand? or maybe a bolt on pair?

Dynatech 600-904801 is 2-3/8 to 2-1/2 weld up kit
Add the 83-912502P 2-1/2 to 5 collector or 83-912502C (with coating and bung)

Dynotech 600-904900 is 2-1/2 weld up kit.
Use same collectors

Hope you have a bunch of loose change..... :D

Dave

Thanks Dave!

I ordered the headers.

How many off you guys run a jesel belt drive with a mechanical fuel pump on the camshaft?
Kit like this

http://www.rbssuperchargers.com/Stor...05&InfoID=3921

Or would it be better to have a belt drive on the pump and take the power from the crank?

Hey Dahlton,
How are you running the distributor, with an offset drive? I've never ran a Jessel drive on a b/blk blown motor. I've always used the Donavan gear drive which also put the pump and distributor on the cover, and still do on my sm/blk 1471 motor. I know you can pull an Enderle 110 pump with a belt drive off the crank, any bigger i doubt if you can, but that's big enough for most blown alcohol engines unless you plan to dump a some nitro in it.
On the lighter side a person from Finland bought some parts from Jimmy Smith while he was visiting in the USA a couple yrs. ago. when he got back he sent a bottle of Minttu Snapps, man that stuff is stout, i still have 3/4 of the bottle left. If you get your motor to run as strong as that stuff, it'll be killer for sure.

Zip.

I have no idea about the distributor yet was hoping a low profile would fit in the stock location I will probably use a crank trigger. I got hold off a Jesel guy and he told me it's ok to run the pump on the cam with the belt drive. So you don't like Minttu snapps if you have 3/4left... if you have not tried it put it in the freezer and keep it there a couple off days and then drink it! (it's good).
I was hoping it would be a killer and make over 1000hp...

Mallory makes a short distributor, it measures 4.75 tall from the bottom of the mounting flange to the top of the cap. You would have to measure the distance from the bottom of the blower to the flange on the manifold. It wouldn't clear on my sm/blk 1471 blown engine with Buzzard catcher, because the manifold is too short, it may on a b/blk though. The distributor in on the second page.

http://www.goodvibesracing.com/searc...butor%20drives

I do have the Snapps in the frig. it's just 1 shot is plenty, didn't say i didn't like, it it's just stout.

On the other and i don't see how your motor could not make a 1,000 HP.

Zip.

D Drive
 

Dahlton,
I will be using pretty Much the same set-up?
572"BBC,Jessel Belt Drive with a Cool Chrome/Moly Bracket for the 110 Enderle.The fellow i bought the Belt drive from,ran a Trigger,Crab Style MSD,and He also had a Pioneer Frt Drive set-up.But,the MSD Crab Style Dist with Crab Cap worked Fine with a HH/Retro Littlefeild 14/71.
I will only be Using a 8/71,on the 572.But it will be ON CORN SQUEEZINS,(E85)
I will be using a set of Merlin 345 IRON Heads,8.2-1 Static,775-800-Roller on a 114.I would Hope you make all of a Grand in HP?Cause im Sh@@ting for 14 to 1500........?We'll See.
Later
G 8)