i remember zip his user name was arussell. and the thread was je piston tech. august 2008

I also remember the topic, I didnt run them before that either though.

Kod, is there any other engine builders or is this someone you've dealt with for years ?

Yep That's him, if i remember correctly he said that due to the low expansion rate of the SHP 4032 mat'l, they should be run with .0035/.004 clearance piston to wall clearance.
Hey David i ran them once, but never again, in fact i now build with Probe pistons, cheaper than JE, wisco or anyone else and the same 2618 mat'l for a true forged piston.

JMO

Zip.

I think you do remember correctly, I'd always been told before that point to stay away from them. I am bias towards Wiseco, they've helped me out from time to time and stepped up on my new engine a few months back.

This is my first trip to this engine builder Hammer. He has been racing Super Stock cars and building engines for years. He came highly recommeded by some hard core racers in this area. I know guys who have purchased his engines and he has done good work for them. He doesn't have much experience with alcohol engines and suggested I switch to gas. That's why I was wondering how much build difference there was between an alcohol and a gas engine.
And on the dyno, this engine kept 8 inches of crankcase vacuum while running gas and built 24 psi pressure on alcohol.
I run a HV billet oil pump and he figures maybe it's putting out too much oil and flooding the valve train area. He mentioned putting oil restrictors in the block to limit the oil getting to the top end.
Initially he thought we needed to speed up the vacuum pump to get rid of the crankcase pressure, which I havent tried yet as I just received the new drive pulley yesterday.
We don't have as many engine builders to choose from in the Great White North. I am just about ready to get this engine running right on gas, sell it and order a Steve Schmitt engine.

Did you get a chance to leak it or compression it yesterday ?

If you do bail on this engine and go another route, there is better shops to choice from then Schmidt also :wink:

Milky oil
 

I believe SRP pistons are 4032 alloy for small blocks and flat top BBC but are 2068 for high compression BBC. I have 2 sets of 496 pistons here and it says on the box and paper work they are 2068. They are a little heavier than the JE and less compression 12.7 versus 13.5 but other than that they are just $200 cheaper.

Are your gapless rings top land or second land gapless? Top gapless should leak 2%.

Have you talked to a tech guy at TOTAL SEAL about rings? Has your engine builder?

I have built some alcohol engines both naturally aspirated and blown and the rings and cylinder wall prep was only difference per TOTAL SEAL specs.

I have had to file fit gapless rings as they were not in the range of .010"-.040".

I have also had a guy switch back and forth on a carburated engine and saw no differece as far as blowby. His engine did not have gapless rings.

I didn't get a chance to do the lead\k down yesterday. Work got in the way.
I plan on doing it today if I can find enough time.

Re: Milky oil
 

The gapless are top land. I have wondered about the cylinder wall prep, as this may explaing the difference between what I see from the engine on gas as opposed to alcohol. Crankcase pressure on alcohol and vacuum on the gas.

Re: Milky oil
 

Mark, i'm glad you posted that number, i wasn't even aware of the change from the 4032, so i did a lttle research. It appears that the 2068 is not a lot different than the 2618 mat'l, but a lot different than the 4032 mat'l. The 4032 having 11%to 13% silicone compared to 0.7% of the 2068 mat'l, and .025% with the 2618. Chemical composition comparison posted below.

Zip.

2068 alum.

R.R.56 [1]
Melting point 635°C
Density 2.75
Composition
Copper 2.0%
Nickel 1.3%
Magnesium 0.8%
Iron 1.4%
Titanium 0.1%
Silicon 0.7%
Aluminium 93.7%

2618 alum

Chemistry Data : [top]


Aluminum Balance
Copper 1.9 - 2.7
Iron 0.9 - 1.3
Magnesium 1.3 - 1.8
Nickel 0.9 - 1.2
Remainder Each 0.05 max
Remainder Total 0.15 max
Silicon 0.25 max
Titanium 0.04 - 0.1

Milky
 

Sorry guys, but I mis spoke on the SRP alloy for BBC high compression. It is not what I said. It is 2618 just like JE. Also it is not on the box but is in the literature. Oops.

Leaked down the engine yesterday:

Cold

Compression test: 195 to 218 psi

Leak down: one cylinder at 0% and one at 2%. All the others at 1%.


Hot - 160 degrees

Leak down: 3 cylinders at 1%, 4 cylinders at 2% and one at 8%.

I changed to oil after the tests. It looked good. No milking.

Warmed the engine and checked the valve lash. All were good.

The oil in the top of the heads had no indication of milking.

I also cleaned out the vacuum pump, lines and breather tank and changed the drive pulley. The vacuum pump is now spinning at 75% of engine instead of 50%.

Now I am wondering if I am rolling into the burnout box too cold. And the initial hit of alcohol washes the cylinders and dumps into the pan.
I would rather not give up on the alcohol now that I know the engine is tight.
You guys say you are running 39 nozzles and 80 - 85 pill. I run at a normal density altitude of 5500 - 6000 feet. Shouldn't I be quite a bit leaner than you?

Ding ding ... you should be leaner in that air, thats why I kept saying start at 39/80, its on the rich side. Actually may be a 38/80 engine as it doesnt make the power I thought it should of. All your leak down #s look good.

The next smaller nozzles I have are 37's. I will have to use 39 nozzles and maybe a 100 pill?

describe your ignition system please? wondering if it is up to the task? trying to sort out a similar fuel system myself... :wink:

what still worries me is this, you are rich on your setup, you take fuel away it slows down. Still think there is something else off somewhere, restricting fuel back. Did you by chance leak down the barrel valve when you leaked the engine ?

leakdown
 

David,

what should the barrel valve leak down be set at?

Re: leakdown
 

On his setup around 28%

MSD 6AL, MSD crank trigger and a MSD Pro Power coil.

I tested the leak down on the barrel valve when the engine was put on the dyno. I will check it again before running this weekend.
If I run 39 nozzles with a 100 pill, that will be a far cry from the dyno that liked the 39 nozzles and 88 pill. The difference was that on the dyno, the engine temp was always above 150 F.

You should always be above that on the track also, somethng I see often when dealing with carb or injection is this, people complain of there cars gaining 50-60 degrees from burnout box to the end of the track. It usually ends up they are very cold in the burnout box and they do not run the fan or water pump because they think it'll keep it cooler. To start the day out ALWAYS get it to 170-180 with the water pump on and then let it heat soak in the engine for awhile. Then go into the burnout box around 155-160 with the water pump on, you should be around 160-170 when stagging, make the run and gain 10 degrees, in the shutdown area-turn on the fan to run along with the water pump. When it gets back to the 170 range shut the fan and water pump off.

Thanks for the good advice David. It makes sense to me. I probably wasn't paying enough attention to the temps. I will now.
I talked to Ron's and they said that for each nozzle change (ie: 39 to 40) the pill should change 15 sizes (ie: 80 to 95). I never knew the correlation before. He was amazed that the best dyno runs were 41 nozzle and 88 pill and 39 nozzle and 82 pill, because they should have been 30 pill sizes apart. 39 / 82 correlated to 41 / 112.

And the saga ends! Not with a spectacular solution either.

Ran the car last week with 39 nozzles and an 84 pill. I made sure I rolled into the water box at 180 degrees. No oil spray on the runs. Too little heat was the problem.
I picked the vacuum pump RPM up to 75% instead of 50%. I think it was still building crankcase pressure because I had a small valve cover leak. I am going to leave the vac pump on and re-install my header evac system with check valves. Hopefully that cures the pressure buildup. Best run was 7.89 @ 169 mph. DA was 4500 feet.
I wanted to thank all you guys, especially Hammer, for trying hard to help me sort this out.

?
 

I THINK YOUR MISSING the POINT of a (VACUME PUMP)?IT Makes VAC.NOT Pressure!My Car will set For DAYS and Still have 6-10PSI.OF Vacume!
You OBVIOUSLY are Missing a INTERNAL Motor Issue,that Someone DONT wantto Deal with!!!
SAD but TRUE!
Later
G :?

Great news !! I read the Saga ends and thought oh no but glad its better..

BBchevy is correct thoguh, your likely on the edge and over driving the pump has helped.

Re: ?
 

I agree BBChevy! But I had to solve the oil problem before I could start to address the crankcase pressure issue. It puzzles me to no end, but the leakdown and compression tests were but great. I am gonna rig up a vacuum / pressure gauge and monitor the crankcase during a run.